When confronted with the inevitable disruption awaiting the future market places by Artificial Intelligence many compare the AI revolution with that of the industrial revolution, however, analyzing the scale at which the new technology has already affected our lives and the pace at which both AI and robotics are being developed proves that the level of disruption will not be comparable with anything we have seen before!
In this Let’s Talk edition of Beyond the Present Podcast Daniel and Pouya discuss what we can expect in our near and distant future and more importantly what we can do to make it harder to be replaced by technology via choosing the right niche and mastering our craft.
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to yet another let's talk addition. It's been a while we had one of these, but now here we are. And we're talking about the future. First of all, Hey there, Dan.
And man, buddy, how's it going? How are you? It's been a while, I'm glad to actually talk to you right now, for a while we've been super busy and the COVID has changed all of our plans, that has certainly changed a lot of my plans, in terms of my travels that have been canceled and the exhibitions that have been canceled and so on. But ultimately, it's been a great, you know, couple of months, because despite the fact that we've had dealt with a lot of issues that are Unfortunately, most of them, of course, were unforeseen. Fortunately, we've managed to get over a lot of these challenges. And I feel like even though in the first four or five months of the pandemic, we are not making good practices, we're just adapting and into the new situation. Now that we've all fully adapted the situation, I guess, we're learning to actually make more progress. Basically, in our work in our businesses, and life is great. And I'm very glad things are fine, haven't you? vuzix? How's life in Canada, where you have to these days? What How do you keep yourself busy? And how are things in Canada?
Pouya LJ 01:17
things are going good. I mean, as you mentioned, life has changed a lot. There are a lot of things that we were used to doing that are either done differently or not done at all. You know, socializing is different. And work is different studies, different
studies are super nice, even socially, they let you literally take it to heart this whole social listening, probably I think now, half the population in probably Canada are suicidal, the other half are depressed, I'm guessing.
Pouya LJ 01:42
Well, I mean, I don't know specifically. But obviously, it should have a mental toll on people, you know, how things are going, but I guess everybody is doing their best to cope. One way or another to the witness situation?
Is jealousy? And so yourself? How do you spend your time basically these days? And cuz I know you're engaged with your studies. And of course, you have your work in business. So because I don't know about that place, because unfortunately, it's probably no. Now, in the US things are very, very divided. So there's on the one hand, those who don't don't ever wear masks, they don't take any of these things seriously. And they just had a you know, life as if nothing has happened. On the other hand, we have those who are very cautious than you know, all over the world. Now we're seeing very different lifestyle. So I have friends in Europe, who are now in complete state of disarray, because especially with some of my friends right now in Italy, and France are just suffering so much. Whereas I have friends in Russia, where they're just quite relaxed, like no man, there's no guarantee here life is great. So it really depends on where you are right now. China is based if you're in China, right, and you're probably the happiest in the world, because there's pretty much nothing they've already beaten the virus A long time ago. So I think this pandemic has made me think a lot more about, you know, how different countries are handling it, basically. So for Canada, because you guys are somewhere in between Europe and America. I mean, you're neither fully all American crazy and nor fully European. So like, I was wondering, like, how are things now there? And people just keep to themselves all the time? Do you have any social events and gatherings or to clubs and bars and restaurants open? Or that kind of stuff?
Pouya LJ 03:17
Yeah, so obviously, it's very, it's a big country in terms of, you know, surface area.
Yeah, but he has one advantage, you're very big. But in terms of like, the population, it's not basically higher again. So that's probably a good thing for the COVID case, broadly speaking,
Pouya LJ 03:35
is actually very good. So most of the country in terms of in terms of population, but in terms of area, geographically, it's very loose, because everything is calmed down and chill down to a good degree, the regulations and whatnot, obviously, they're, they're like masks and whatnot. But when you go to places like Toronto, Ontario, and around Toronto in specific, then you have a different situation, we like two weeks ago, we had to go to a what what's called by the officials a modified stage two is actually means that indoor gatherings are limited to 10 people again, it was
Wow, much more, monitors these things because I the exact same problem in Russia, where I actually had to, you know, deal with a lot of problems. In the US things are a lot easier, fortunately. And again, not necessarily fortunately, but at least as of now, there are no strict regulations. Of course, the election will determine, you know, how will this continue? And in some countries like European nations, I mean, they're just I feel sorry for those who are now in Europe right now. So if you're listening to us, you know, from the European Union, literally, I'm just sorry for all of you guys. It's just I feel your pain, and I know how difficult it is for you. But ultimately, I guess it depends. So for Canada, like, do they like have any means of enforcing these rules? Or they just say it and the reason that they are they just follow without asking any questions?
Pouya LJ 04:54
Well, I mean, I think it's a degree of both meaning that essentially, it's You know, guidelines are put in put in place on people, for the most part to follow. These things are maybe not to the letter depends on there are some gray areas, obviously but generally speaking people do follow There are obviously always people who don't follow those rules and regulations. And I've seen sometimes people are getting fun, not individuals, usually it's on the side of businesses for example, if a restaurant is not allowed to host people inside like they can do outdoors at this point, no problem. patios, whatnot.
Really, is it possible now with a temperature I don't know how the game is right now is there but I'm just harder for outdoor hosting. Now
Pouya LJ 05:41
it's getting, it's getting more difficult. But for now, it's not still above zero. And they have these like heated patios. So they make it a little bit Wow, more doable. I mean, they have to survive the restaurant business specific, obviously, obviously, when it gets really cold, it gets much more difficult. But it's not there yet. So point being, if businesses are not complying, it's going to be very difficult for them to hide, because much more public, but individuals are a different story. I mean, there are cases that there's some enforcement, but for the most part, they're relying on people following the regulations, etc.
I think this whole thing taught me the importance of leadership and how almost the way you live your life, it pretty much is dictated by how the leaders make decisions. And I just realized that a lot more than I used to, and it's just a, you know, very interesting fact overall, but overall, good things are fine. And I hope that all of the world we gradually as we get closer to that, that, you know, vaccine vaccination day, hopefully things gets better and occasional just announced that they are ready to hopefully, work very hard to ship the these vaccines worldwide. Let's see what they do. And let's just stay optimistic.
Pouya LJ 06:51
Yeah, absolutely. That's what we'll see what happens. I mean, typically, I mean, historically, I've heard it somewhere. I'm not. I haven't fact checked this. So people who are listening to this are welcome to do it. themselves. Don't take it from me. But I've heard that historically, the duration of pandemics are somewhere around 18 months. With without an accent vaccine, like even if you go further back. So that is sad in a way that it's going to be 678 more months, months, maybe but on the other hand, are
officially so far. So you said 18 months, that's pretty much like almost a year and a half. Yeah, I guess it seems fun that we got still almost half a year to go right. Yeah, roughly. I see pretty good, but still is happier just means that most of the you know, the the distance already been crossed? That's a good thing. If you're an optimist, guys, we're to third through man, come on. Let's push it through.
Pouya LJ 07:47
Well, yeah, but but so the historic data, I think, like even if it's close, it's correct. Let's say it's correct, let's say three months stance historically, roughly, obviously, there's no line. But it doesn't take two things into account. One is vaccine, we're not historically popular, like if you go beyond 8090 hundred years ago, then that's another thing. So you that's one thing, whether we have acting or not, on the other hand, like these kind of quarantines, like, what I'm trying to say, virus would burn through population before people would go isolate themselves, if needed, and whatnot. So this timeline might not really work in that sense. But who knows?
I see. Of course, now we have more people around. But then again, we have better technologies. And of course, sure, better means reaching people. So I hope that this is going to be around the same as you mentioned, hopefully, hopefully, and and I really look forward to like going back to normal, hopefully, I guess some around March will be a lot better. That's what I personally have planned for my major travels. And we'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes.
Pouya LJ 08:57
Yeah, absolutely, though, so they were actually that was not part of our agenda. I mean, obviously, talk about it a little bit. But what we're talking about today, very briefly, there's going to be further episodes on this subject, obviously, because it's a big subject. It's another kind of disruption. And that is the the AI disruption or the computer, what we had many technological disruptions before. And one of them is we're going to talk about is artificial intelligence, and its powers and how it affects us and our life. And so we know that all of us have heard, we talked about it on this podcast, that division of intelligence, there's a lot of tasks are going to be automated and done by computers, essentially, you know, from grocery stores now that you do self checkout, for instance, or other means. Now, things are changing very rapidly, very quickly. And one of the natural questions for people especially younger individuals who are trying to get into the workforce and trying to see what they want to follow. The natural question is, what area? Or areas? Can I aim at and go to have a sustainable job or occupation in the future? Now, that is another good question. And that's what we're going to address today. So what are your thoughts generally about automation and artificial intelligence as a powerhouse for for this? phenomenal? I see,
you see, one of the problems that I get with people oftentimes tend to compare this AI revolution with that of the Industrial Revolution and saying, you know, what, man, we had the same issue back then. So we used to have horses, and then we got into cars and all that. So the jobs changed and became more industrial. So there are some optimists in this regard, who are saying that, yes, this AI, and this revolution will ultimately create new types of jobs, which I believe that to some point is actually true. But the problem is that that world, the industrial revolution happened in an era where we had far, you know, far fewer people than we have today. And based upon the all the basically estimations, the world population is definitely going to increase, there's no doubt about it. So this is we're going to see more people. So you can compare, I don't know, 1900, and 1800, with 2030 2035, because we're going to have a lot more people. That's number one. And even if you take a look into the history, even though we had, as we got into this revolution, we did face with fewer people who are required to work is now all the factors when working with machines, they were, you know, a lot less need for manual labor. So that's the one issue, people who think like this, just, you know, we're gonna have all this AI stuff, and then people are gonna change their jobs, they're gonna actually move on to doing AI things, if you will. But the fact of the matter is that AI is hap occurring, this revolution is occurring at a time where we have far more people, basically, than we have jobs for them. And number two, it is the issue of how AI disrupts work. By its very nature. You see, when it comes to, for example, Ai, we are talking about a type of technology that is capable of learning and growing and developing itself. So when you are, let's say, designing a machine, or an instrument for a factory, let's say in an early 1900s, obviously, you still need operators to work on this, those who build it and so on. But AI, it is not a technology or an instrument that you can just simply use. Rather, it's a source, it's a basically means of creating other types of technologies. Because AI is capable of generating basically its own decisions and its own basically data. The other issue, of course, is robotics, and how AI, once combined with robotics, can do a lot of things that we are doing right now, almost, you know, effortlessly. I mean, right now, what people think of like AI robots, which is not the movie, but like the actual vacuum cleaner. That's a very simple example of when AI meets robots. And a lot of houses around the world are now using this AI robots, vacuum cleaner, which just moves around the house on a regular basis and cleans things. So just imagine that thing, not just apply to a vacuum cleaner, but to almost everything else, whether it being I don't know those who let's say, clean the trash, basically, around the world, let's let's just say those who are, I mean, think of like very menial tasks that we think of like humans to be done. Obviously think about, you know, most almost all the drivers and pilots going out of job. And once you look at the scale at which this AI technology will affect us, you realize that the you know, the damage, if you will, will be a lot more substantial, you know, the employment and the job market than it was back in the industrial age. And other than that, of course, we have the issue of businesses who want to cut costs. So labor used to be cheap, obviously, in the beginning of the Industrial Age. But now, obviously, as you probably know, around the world, there's this trend towards increasing the minimum wage. And if you work in business, you understand that your number one job is to keep the cost as low as possible while maximizing the profit. So any entrepreneur in the future world would very much prefer to get their robotic versions of those, let's say staffs, just kind of like the iRobot vacuum cleaner, then to actually pay for a real human, because that probably will cost a lot less than we will know a lot more reliable because robots don't need sick leaves that don't get pregnant. And often that they don't complain so much, basically, right? I don't know, maybe someday robots will get pregnant. But until then after for now, be relaxed, but it's not going to occur. But the fact of the matter is, this is occurring right now. And for that very reason, we have to be prepared. Now while I do want to raise the awareness of our listeners and to make them a little bit cautious. I also want to say that there's a good side. And the good side is that while AI can replace a lot of our jobs, there are ways that we you know, are listeners can actually prepare themselves for that world to make sure that they are not going to be the first who will lose their jobs, they will actually more time to think of other ways to take their lives to a whole new level. And in one of my latest posts, I typed out the importance of mastering a specific subject a very high level, because that will then prepare you to deal with the future marketplaces where, you know, average skill and average levels of basically accountabilities can be easily replaced by AI, whereas more basically, advanced and masterful times performance will not be as easily replaceable, let's say compared to the average person.
Pouya LJ 15:36
Right? Well, that's true for the most part. I mean, I think it really depends on what is the area you're mastering, like if it's chess? Not really, right. Well, I do chess as a leisure.
My any Some even right now, I guess, this is not like about AI. I think like, all the top chess master players right now, they have all lost, I guess, probably say, like, IBM or something, I'm guessing.
Pouya LJ 15:59
Exactly. But yeah, that's specifically my point. And so it makes it very dependent on the field as well, I think I completely agree with you. So the degree of mastery definitely matters. But also the field can matter. And it's very difficult to predict what fields are going to be impact, I mean, some are easier to predict, some are not based on the technological advancements we have so far. But generally speaking, things that are more nuanced, are much harder to you know, teach in machine to deal with, like, chess is certainly a, you know, a tasking, job. But the strategy in chess is basically because of limitation, our limitations of imagining free moves, for what few moves ahead, right? Like, the whole thing is that you anticipate, there are different things I can do. And each of them will have, you will have, be able to see a few steps ahead, if I do this, the opponent will do that, then I'll do this. Right. So there's a degree of anticipation that a machine clearly because of the memory of has a can, and the fast, how fast it moves, everything it can actually do all of those steps ahead of actually playing get in its memory, and decide which is the best move to, to success. So that is certainly the the nuance is very limited. However, if you're dealing with other humans, like it's a management position, perhaps I mean, you can say that decision making can be automated very easily. But no.
See, that's the issue. Because we don't when we think of AI, we think about like, I don't know, things moving around, and just, you know, making certain codes to do this and do that. Because AI isn't just about, you know, those type of tasks that we habitually associated with, like, you know, robotics and computer science. I mean, Ai, have you ever heard about, like, there's there right now pages on social media, featuring poetry and quotes made by AI. Now, I don't know if you've ever read one of these. But at first you think like, there's this, you know, crazy philosophers making some random stuff. But ironically, at its current level, which is almost its infancy right now, we're seeing that AI can now come up with arts and philosophy and quotations. So obviously making decisions probably, and that's my problem, because we think that is all about, you know, just the the drivers and the pilots. No, man, what if the AI becomes this CEO of a company? What if you hire top managers, without hiring any real person, what if you literally subscribe to a management, for example, or managerial AI by the future IBM's. And they literally you subscribe at a, you know, literally fraction of the cost of hiring a, an experienced, let's say, top manager, which, which could cost the company, you know, millions of dollars per year in salary, you with a fraction of the cost, you can actually get the AI to use big data and make and who's always online to make literally the kind of decisions that almost no, basically a top manager could make. We're talking about that type of shift, not just, you know, we use AI, will it but just imagine that a company has shareholders and all the managers who are making the decisions are not real people. They're AI and algorithms that are making those decisions for the company.
Pouya LJ 19:38
Yeah, that's exactly correct. And that makes it very difficult to, you know, actually anticipate what field to go to. So that's what I subscribe to one of the best best advices ever heard on this subject. And that is, you know what, nobody knows truly. What fields are going to be more effective, probably most are going to be very much effective. Maybe some more, some less. At the end of the day, the the the advice that I heard is that see what you are interested in are like to do, don't think too much about these things. I mean, think about it to a degree, if you can anticipate it, of course, you want to submit it. But at the end of the day, there is a huge amount of ambiguity and what is going to be happening to any of these fields in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever have you time. And the advice is to the point, yes, find the field of your interest, have fields of your interest, follow your passion, as you mentioned, to the mastery, and try to keep up with the technology and how it's improving, transforming. And make sure you're not obsolete, as best as you can. So at the end of the day, we will need to be students of this, you know, field not to be researchers, but at least follow them and see what is happening and what are the shifts you can give to yourself and your own field. So you're more compatible with this new era and less obsolete?
I agree completely, definitely. Because I mean, it's really a matter of time before the way we do things right now will go completely Absolutely. I mean, just take a look at how we did banking, in the 1950s and 60s. And but today, almost all the skills and abilities that have banker in the 1960s. Let's go back to New York in 1960 and 1970. At that time, a typical New York banker would have had to have a lot of skills, including how to know the right clients, how to know to whom they should be you, for example, cash, the cheque and to whom you will not cash the check. I mean, how will you interact with the customers? What skills do you how to type properly using your typewriter to do those things took all those things. So almost all those skills right now are pretty much made obsolete, basically. And now, thanks to online banking, I don't know about the last time you went to a bank projects. But the last time I went to a bank was just because I had to physically be present to basically change my master and Visa card because they got expired after three years. And beyond that, there's pretty much no need for me to go to any bank at all. And just that's just one example, obviously. But once you take that trend, you realize that of course, this is going to go up to a very, you know, at a level where perhaps a lot of things we are now doing today might be completely obsolete. But then again, while I say that still, technology needs time to grow and expand, and that is why I mean, while we cannot perhaps avoid the inevitable, we could perhaps at least prolong it. And let's just at least those of us who are in our, let's say, mid 20s and early 30s, a chance to last probably as the last maybe generation who will go unscathed with all of this. And by the time that AI really takes over, probably we're already retired. But still, we need to teach the younger generation some skills to prepare themselves. And that's why we believe that being able to, first of all, making sure that our focus is as much about humans as it is about a skill because I really believe that almost all skills that are fully logical in nature and that don't involve humans. certain skills that could easily be automated are the first to go, obviously. And but the more human touch we add to any career path, whether it's me as a lawyer, you can no longer rely on just your knowledge of the law. Because once we have legal advisors AI as a eyes, there's no need for I mean, all your nose means nothing because they have direct access millisecond, right. But what if you focus on mastering law? As somebody who knows how to deal with people and clients? Well, what if you focus on the human aspect of legal practice, that will give you a huge edge? In case I don't know, 15 years from now, you've had to see major lawyers leaving basically a law firm, because there's no job for them available. Right. So whether it is I don't know, as a teacher educator, if you focus on the human element, whether it is in business and finance, whether it is in running early, you know, for example, properties around the world, if you try to focus more on how will you satisfy your guests and hyper generate, you know, more positive reviews. So ultimately, what I'm saying is by trying to focus on mastering, especially the human elements of what you do, probably you can actually prolong the inevitable and remain unplayable for the majority of your adult life. That's, of course, assuming that AI remains at its current growth, and we've not seen a major exponential change, I don't know 10 years from now.
Pouya LJ 24:40
Right? No, that that's absolutely good advice, I think. And, you know, at the end of the day, there's a huge amount of ambiguity and less, but that's just part of it. We have to learn how to cope with it best, of course, and these are all good advice. Sure,
sure. But I don't know what's going to happen. So let's, I mean, let's talk about our own field. So I don't know what's what's going to happen? Do you think? So let's have a few fields that we know very well. The fields of education, the fields, for example, science, because I know you're a scientist, entrepreneurship, running a business, real estate, and basically, investments. What do you think people in these fields should do to somehow prepare themselves for that inevitable?
Pouya LJ 25:22
Yeah, I think so. So first, let me narrow it down to science, first and foremost, because that is the area that it's actually been very helpful this these tools that currently exists at least, and enhance the ability of the scientist or researchers or engineers to create things or, for example, this simple example is how much AI has been used in the medical industry, while industry I don't know in medicine in general, trying to find different pathogens and whatnot. So it is all very important to consider. There's also a degree of research going into a eyes generating science, meaning coming up with your own trying them and approving them. Now, that is, that seems to be to the degree that I'm not closely following that research. But to the degree that I understand it, it seems to be proving tasking and difficult, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. So my guess is that it's just a guess. So who knows, but my guess is that you will be a very, very valuable tool to human scientists. At the first stage, it becomes extremely important and maybe a part of their, their lives, but nothing is, you know, certain we don't we just simply don't know and, and make any hope is, the hope is that these tools can help us solve the greater and more difficult questions of our times, we were talking about COVID, how much uncertainty there is about this simple disease that we think we got a grasp on these things. But we simply that it one thing it showed us is that we just don't, we just don't know. So well, about so many of these things. So. So yeah, that's, that's how I see that science. I don't know, if you want to talk about fields related to finance and management?
Well, first of all, I should finance I think that's the one thing that I'm very concerned about. Because the field of finance has, it's pretty much about having information. And obviously, there is going to always be an advantage to a an AI that is capable of running all sorts of diagnostics and prognostics, and all those things imagining the possible yields of different investments. So because I know that there is a firm near city right now that has invested more than one and a half billion dollars, just to increase the optic speed of their internet connection, so that by like almost a one or two seconds, and that has given this, you know, hedge fund a huge advantage. If, if two extra seconds and you know, faster processing is going to give you that advantage. Imagine what will AI do to finance and investments just really, somehow makes me sometimes even disturbed about this matter. The other issue, of course, is the issue of business. What if AI, which is a level where we can actually hire AI as those who make decisions for deciding what items to sell. I mean, right now, one of the common ways that a lot of unpresentable are making money is through what we call arbitrage. So buy low in one place, or market or in one situation sell high somewhere else. But one of the biggest challenges of making this work is to know which products to sell, and to how to somehow direct them. What if an AI is capable of finding the right targeted advertising for the clients using Facebook, again, all real time by analyzing and getting all the feedback from the big data, and then decide to sell this, you know, for example, you know, this ad to this type of demographics and to boost you know, the profit of one company. So, when you think about what AI can do to business and finance, it's just it almost pretty much can render any human business person almost out of this business. So that is why I think try to focus so much on learning how to do these things well yourself now, and keep up pace with the changes and trends probably can help us a little bit in this regard. And as you mentioned, education we go through this philosophy pretty well, was definitely those were a lot of changes. Because as information is already right now we're seeing you know, you can just find any information just with Google. So almost all knowledge workers will be facing with dramatic problems because now their knowledge that they have and acquired yesterday could be obsolete today. And AI knows about this, but you don't. And this could actually make a lot of educators also almost somehow rendered obsolete because now we can use AI as its own means of tutoring and teaching and educating. Even as you mentioned generating research, you know, at a university level or conducting, for example, other types of scientific work. So these Things were talking like a major disruptions. But then again, as you mentioned yourself, as of now, they still have faced with a lot of difficulties. And most of this backlog we have right now is still a subject to, you know, science fiction. But also, this is just like most things that were science fiction, but are now true today, things like your your cell phone, and all those things may be here talking to you in Canada. So this, all these it's just a matter of time, which is why we can still prepare ourselves for, you know, a very fulfilling career if we commit to complete excellence, and to really do our best to stay up to date and to basically try our best to remain focused on what we're doing.
Pouya LJ 30:40
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And great points, great points. Now we're coming to the end of the show, and both of us have a hard stop in a couple of minutes. So is there anything I mean, obviously, we're going to talk about this subject more and more in the future. without a shadow of a doubt, it's a very important subject for the future of humanity, of course. But for the for this lesson, for the sake of this episode, what we talked about, is there anything you want to add on at the end of our show?
Well, first of all, it's great to see you and talk to you put yourself in a while. And it was a great discussion so far. And as we discussed, AI is here. And while as of now, it is still at a stage where we can easily beat it. Just wait, I don't know, based on what I've heard so far, and what my own estimations just wait about 15 or so years, until you see how the AI technology will be somehow going to disrupt almost all industries, including those we used to think they belong and are fully downloaded by humans. And for that reason, I believe that as we discussed earlier, it's best to remain optimistic. I mean, all oh my gosh, what's the point, Dan? Listen, Dad, I just I just listened to Pouyjix and Dan on this podcast, and they say there's no Why should I go to college? Why should I get a job man is gonna do everything. I just want to stay home smoke pot and play fortnight. So that is not the answer. Obviously, you want to actually take this seriously and somehow redouble your efforts to try to obtain as much mastery in any field that you really wish to do in order to prepare yourself for that future and marketplace.
Pouya LJ 32:15
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I agree the optimism point is very important. You don't want to give into that. Those like there's obviously all of these talking has talked about this the subjects, yes, it's important to pay attention. Yes, it's important to, you know, discuss these things. But it doesn't mean that we have to be panicked by them and lose faith in the I remember that last episode, you were talking about surviving and thriving and the, you know, economy, same thing. You want to remain optimistic at the heart of all of this. That makes a lot of times she will. Absolutely and everyone. Appreciate it. And thank you, Dan, for joining us once more.
My pleasure, buddy. I really enjoyed it.
Pouya LJ 32:55
Awesome. Thank you very much. It was a it was a good episode. I hope you enjoyed it as well. You're URLs, please let us know if there's anything specific, specifically that you want us to talk about. You can reach out to me then on social media, you know how to do that it's in the show notes as well. or leaving comments definitely would like reviews and help us grow until later episode.
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